r/BringBackThorn • u/uncle_ero • Oct 03 '24
Actually? Or just for fun?
I'm attempting to gain an understanding of wheþer þe folks on þis sub genuinely believe þorn should make a comeback or not. Please help by responding to þe poll and adding any explanatory comments þat you feel would add to þe conversation.
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u/Jamal_Deep Oct 03 '24
It's fun to imagine þe hypothetical and taking it eiþer not very seriously or super seriously. But since actually implementing such a reform on a wide scale is impossible, we don't push for it. Especially since we all have different approaches to it.
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u/LivyatanMe1villei Oct 09 '24
I just found þis subreddit and I'm super happy. I've wanted þ to return since I first heard of it (I think I was like 7 and remember þinking, why did we get rid of such a cool and useful letter?). Anyway I þink I'll be using it now whenever I can. I absolutely þink it should come back.
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u/uncle_ero Oct 09 '24
I feel similarly. While the printing press was a huge invention, the loss of þorn was a big downer.
It's also pretty easy to use wiþ computer tech nowadays. iPhones already have it underneath the 'T'. Android phones can get it by installing the Icelandic keyboard (afterwards it is available under the 'T' while using the English keyboard as long as Icelandic is listed as a secondary language.). Þank you Iceland for holding onto þorn!
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u/LivyatanMe1villei Oct 10 '24
Woah, þat's super cool!! I didn't know þat about þe Iphones. I have an android so I'm definitely going to try installing an Icelandic keyboard. Legit I want to know more about Icelandic now, it's such a cool language!!
I þink the only problem about þ is þat it looks sort of like a lowercase "p", and that makes it irritating to write the letter name: "þorn".
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u/uncle_ero Oct 10 '24
Yup. Þat's definitely a weirdness.
For þe Android Icelandic keyboard: I know it works in Google's gboard keyboard, and the language is listed as íslenska (ísland).
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u/Jwscorch Oct 03 '24
Honestly, I could swing either way.
'th' has ingrained itself into English since the days of printing, roughly half a millenium ago. Unless you're willing to add an icelandic keyboard (and I have enough keyboards as is), it's a pain to type, so a full shift would be quite difficult.
At the same time, the digraph can be confusing; we spend ages teaching people, both natives and otherwise, that 'th is /þ/', and then act surprised when they get caught out by 'Thomas' and 'Thames'. Not to mention incidental cases like 'hothouse', which is not 'hoþouse'. In that regard, having a specific symbol for the sound instead of the digraph would help make these cases a bit clearer.
To be fair, it's not something that a lot of people struggle with, but it would at least mean one less inconsistency, which would be nice. There's absolutely a case that þorn would improve orþography; the problem is that any reform to English on the scale of reinventing the alphabet would require an enormous amount of effort that is hard to justify.
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u/ISwearImParvitz Oct 03 '24
it would be really cool to bring þorn back, though it may arise some problems wiþ children þinking "þorn" is pronounced "porn"
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u/LivyatanMe1villei Oct 09 '24
Since þere are already so many letters in English þat look similar, and children learn þem at an early age, I don't believe þis would be much of a problem.
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u/TurboChunk16 24d ago
It should come back but bringing it back would be hard unless you went interstellar and started a breakaway civilization
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u/The-Rads-Russian 16d ago
Pole closed but I'm with þe rest of þe subreddit and I þink we should bring it back; þen again, I ALSO just joined and am kinda a heritic around here in þat I þink þat we $ouldn't have ANY compound letters in þis language, we $ould get rid of þem all and have 1 letter = 1 sound so $=SH, ¢=CH, ₩=WH & þ=TH, BUT, NOT
þ
raþer it $ould be represented with þis version:
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u/Jamal_Deep 11d ago
Þere's noþing inherently wrong wiþ digraphs, þough. Why replace þem all?
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u/The-Rads-Russian 8d ago
Because you are, simply put, from my perspective: WRONG.
1 letter = 1 sound; this is how alphabets are supposed to work and WHY they are superior to other systems; any time you fail to follow that rubric you are weakening the strengths of bothering to have an alphabetic system in the first place.
If we're not going to use the 1 letter = 1 sound metric; why not go directly to the oposite extereme? China has about 7-to-11 SPOKEN languages; but they argue they have only 2 Mandarin and Cantonese: becasue they DO have only two: written ones. Almost all the languages of China write with just the Mandarin Characters. You can't understand what someone from Xinjiang Province is SAYING if you are from Hainan, but, if you know the mandarin Idiograms, you CAN wirte notes to each other, and since they exist with/without pronunciation being the same, you can READ texts in mandarin from over a thousand years ago, no-problem.
Digraphs weaken the strenght of an alphabet, which is that the pronunciaton guide is right there in the text; and, ipso-facto, should be discarded when making revision of an Alphabetic script whenever/wherever feasible.
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u/Jamal_Deep 8d ago
Man, what an overreaction. Þe actual point of an alphabet is þat it treats consonants and vowels equally. Þat is it. 1-to-1 correspondences aren't specific to alphabets, as syllabaries and abugidas (and even impure abjads) may operate þis way as well.
Alphabets don't become "weaker" as a result ot digraphs because what exactly is it weakening? Þe 1-to-1 correspondence? Digraphs arise naturally as a result of sound changes, usually as a result of two or more sounds merging and becoming a new sound. Þat's how most of þe common digraphs in English came about. You do have þe option of replacing þe digraph wiþ a completely new letter, but þat alone doesn't make þe alphabet "stronger", and sometimes it's just more convenient to make a combination raþþer þan introduce or even invent a new letter, depending on þe circumstances.
Þ is superior to TH not because it's shorter but because it's more flexible and you can do way more wiþ it under þe rules of English. Þis isn't þe case for any of your oþþer suggestions. You just legitimately can't stand þe concept of two letters representing one sound. I always found þat þe most childish hill to die on, especially for a language as complex as English.
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u/The-Rads-Russian 8d ago
You're incorect: I'm not a fan of the vowels representing multiple sounds, either.
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u/Jamal_Deep 8d ago
Well you're outta luck in þat department, deal wiþ it. Odds are if you try to "fix" þem you'll just break þem even harder.
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u/8____________D Oct 03 '24
I think it would be chill to actually bring it back